Wednesday, May 14, 2008

Quibbling About Atonement!



Thom Rainer posted an article on Lifeway’s Web Site claiming that pastors who did not preach penal substitutionary atonement (he didn’t use the term, he described the doctrine in very strong terms) are guilty of pastoral malpractice. He used the word “treasonous.” --- quote on one of a myriad of blogs which are a part of what is known as Methoblog

I stumbled on to this by accident -- this flurry of comments about atonement which seemed to be sparked mainly by a fellow by the name of Rainer. Additional comments have been added and links provided if one chooses to further pursue the subject of atonement.

One interesting response was by a guy who said he would plead guilty to the charge as outlined by the guy named Rainer.

Very strange, is it not, that we get bogged (or is it blogged) down in what is a rather simple matter -- the issue of Jesus Christ, the Son of God, sacrificing His life for the members of the human race so they could be forgiven and restored to a right relationship with Almighty God!

It may well be that this thing of there being an almost endless parade of "theories" about the atonement has come about due to failure to meet one of the four demands set before us by Jesus Himself -- "Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven." (Matthew 18:3).

Why is it that we have to be so "adult" and so "sophisticated," zealously pursuing the "theologians" and the "scholars" and trying to determine who has the final word on atonement? Is it smply that we want to impress the laity with our ability to quote Dr. So & So and what he has to say about anything that has to do with a mess called theology?

Just what part of "For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him." [2 Corinthians 5:21] OR "Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, 'Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree'), that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith." [Galatians 3:14, 15] OR "...who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness; by whose stripes you were healed." [1 Peter 2:24] is it that you don't understand?

I guess I would have to plead guilty for the benefit of those who seem to be badly hung up on the subject of preaching about atonement -- I'm guilty of spreading information among my people that Jesus died for our sins and we are called to repent of our sins and receive Him as Savior and Lord. And you know what? We remember His sacrifice for us regularly by engaging in an activity called Holy Communion!

Is it correct to assume that those who have problems with the subject of atonement (especially what is referred to as PSA) consistently avoid observing a sacrament known as Holy Communion?

Just wondering!

For Jews request a sign, and Greeks seek after wisdom; but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men. For you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called. But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty; and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are, that no flesh should glory in His presence. but of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God; and righteousness and sanctification and redemption; that, as it is written, "He who glories, let him glory in the LORD." --- 1 Corinthians 1:22-31








Monday, May 12, 2008

They Were in Their Pulpits on Mother's Day, But Don't Expect Them to Be There on Father's Day!



...Pastors should bring a pulpit robe or alb and a red stole to process in the service of Ordination. If you do not have these items, that is fine, you still are a part of the clergy family and will join in the service. If you have scheduled a wedding for June 14th and plan to leave Grove City for rehearsal Friday evening, you still need to return to Grove City for the Sunday service. If you are participating in one of our camping events the week following Annual Conference, you still have ample time to arrive at camp following the service. If you need to be excused from Annual Conference, it is your responsibility to communicate in writing to Bishop Bickerton, Conference Secretary John Wilson, and your Superintendent why you cannot participate in Annual Conference this June.... Part of the "orders from headquarters" directed to pastors in one of the districts of the Western PA Annual Conference in anticipation of the service of ordination scheduled on Father's Day, June 15, 2008 at Grove City College in Grove City PA!

They say 3 out of 4 ain't bad! In baseball or softball, if you get 3 hits out of 4 times at bat, that would be considered an impressive batting average. If you were traveling through a small town which had 4 traffic lights and you hit 3 of the 4 when they were green, you would congratulate yourself on doing well in avoiding some red lights in that community. In fishing, if lively trout hit the bait 4 times and you get 3 out of the 4, you would consider that a successful fishing venture.

But sometimes 3 out of 4 is not a good thing -- ask the congregations of a few hundred United Methodist Churches in western Pennsylvania about that ratio. You see, for the 3rd time in 4 years their pastors will not be present with them on Father's Day!

The pastors have always been present in their churches on Mother's Day, as they were yesterday. But for 3 years out of 4 it's been a kitty of another color on Father's Day.

The Western PA Annual Conference of the United Methodist Church will be meeting the latter part of the second week of June and will conclude with an ordination service on the morning of Father's Day, June 15th! The conference will meet at Grove City College in Grove City PA. It will be the 3rd year out of 4 since Tom Bickerton became bishop that Father's Day has been scrapped in favor of an ordination service!

The bishop along with support from his superintendents is adamant in demanding that all pastors be present for the ordination service on Father's Day. The pastors are given ample "warning" in advance about this (see the wording of statements in one district newsletter as noted above) with specific instructions about making sure arrangements are made for someone to conduct the services in the pastors' absence.

I'm not sure that even if you die on Saturday night, June 14th, that you would have a legitimate excuse for being absent from the ordination service the next morning! But that can be taken care of by arranging to have the funeral director wheel you down the aisle in your casket ahead of the bishop and all the other dignitaries in the procession -- that way, your presence will be obvious. Just make sure the casket lid is open so that they know you were present -- this is necessary in order to insure that no "unpleasant" things happen to you because you were regarded as being absent!

Now a question -- is there anybody out there who knows of a similar debacle taking place in other UMC conferences or other denominations in the entire United States? Write it down -- you'll be hard pressed to find even a half dozen pastors who will be absent from their pulpits on Father's Day. For any outside the W. PA Annual Conference who are absent it will likely be due to an unexpected emergency of the first magnitude!

I wrote to Bishop B. about this the first year, figuring that being a rookie bishop and quite young (I have 2 kids older than he, 1 about the same age, and 2 a bit younger) that he didn't fully realize what he was doing.

The second year I also included the District Superintendents in the letter sent. The appeal was that Father's Day is an ideal time to stress the importance of family and responsibilities of fatherhood, etc. And this at a time when our culture is fast adopting an attitude that fathers aren't really all that important -- about all they are good for is to provide some wriggly things which are essential in making a baby! One woman got a lot of publicity plus many, many bucks from her book which described how she artificially inseminated herself (the old turkey baster tactic) and has a child she is raising without a father being involved! Much as she probably hates to admit it, she did need the help of a man at one point though she never met the guy -- he provided some of those wriggly things mentioned earlier!

Anyway, the bishop, as I expected, made no response to those letters. One person mentioned to me that Father's Day is not a significant religious holiday -- the implication being if the the W. PA Annual Conference wants to have an ordination service on the morning of Father's Day with all pastors expected to be present, so what? If a bishop says that is the way it is to be, that settles it -- no questions or objections are permitted! Sounds like a United Methodist version of a pope at his dictatorial best, does it not?

A final question I asked in one of the letters was this -- "If it were Mother's Day, would you have the ordination service with the presence of all pastors being required? We both know the answer to that one, don't we?"

There are many things that call for prayer -- sometimes very unusual things -- this is one of them. Whatever it takes, may Almighty God clearly reveal that it is His will for those W. PA United Methodist pastors to be in their pulpits on Father's Day in June of 2008 and not at Grove City College!

Go ahead -- ask them -- ask any congregation of United Methodists if they would prefer that their pastor would be present with them to conduct worship on Father's Day. And do not condition the people by first saying that this is what the bishop and the superintendents expect -- we're not concerned about their desires, but only with what God wants!

And as an ordained elder in the W. PA Annual Conference, where will I be on the morning of June 15th? Just where I am each Father's Day and where I have always been in 49 years of ministry -- occupying the pulpit of the church (or churches) God has called me to serve, and where He expects me to be. I mentioned this in the second letter sent to the bishop and D.S.'s -- also mentioned was the fact that if that was unacceptable to them, then they would have to take the issue up God, because He is the One Who wants me to be in a certain church at a certain time on Father's Day! I have never yet missed a Father's Day service in any of the churches I have served over the years and I have no intention of missing one in 2008!

And when they had brought them, they set them before the council. And the high priest asked them, saying, "Did we not strictly command you not to teach in this name? And look, you have filled Jerusalem with your doctrine, and intend to bring this Man's blood on us!" Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said: "We ought to obey God rather than men...." --- Acts 5:27-29

Thursday, May 8, 2008

Could We Have Some Attention Directed to a Greater Tragedy, Please?



The above banner is on display at the home page of the web site of the Western Pennsylvania Conference of the United Methodist Church. Address for the site is http://www.wpaumc.org/ if you want to see it for yourself.

Yea, I know -- here I go again! But you have to understand that it's a pattern I've been in for quite a few years -- as I recall, it all started back in about the year 1973. A lot of water has run under the bridge in that amount of time and a lot of blood of the innocents has run down the sewers also!

W. PA United Methodists have been challenged repeatedly to support the Nothing But Nets campaign in an effort to cut down the number of malaria victims in Africa. As noted above, 1 million children die in Africa each year from malaria.

Bishop Bickerton has been at the forefront of this drive. He's been all over the map in promoting this and received high profile publicity at the General Conference recently with the announcement of grants being given to the United Methodist Church as the campaign continues.

Well and good -- Jean and I have contributed to this effort as have many other individuals and groups.

BUT, as asked so many times before -- why is there stone silence in regard to the more than 1 million unborn children who are brutally mutilated and murdered in their mothers' wombs each year in the "land of the free and the home of the brave?" Come on now, tell me -- why do our bishops in the United Methodist Church, Bickerton included, come down with a severe case of lock jaw when it comes to speaking out on this abomination? Do they deceive themselves into thinking that Almighty God is not going to respond to this massive shedding of innocent blood?

For the latest numbers from certain points of time and since certain politicians and church officials have taken office, go to A Quick Look at the United States' Massacre Tally!

Will there be anything significantly done to stop the hemorrhaging? Not likely -- about all we have to look forward to is God's response to it all, and that will not be a Sunday School picnic by any stretch of human imagination!

And will there be some "balanced" information on the W. PA Annual Conference web site about 1 million or more unborn children in the United States being exterminated each year along with 1 million children in Africa dying from Malaria? We all know the answer to that one, don't we?

"For if you thoroughly amend your ways and your doings, if you thoroughly execute judgment between a man and his neighbor, if you do not oppress the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow, and do not shed innocent blood in this place, or walk after other gods to your hurt, then I will cause you to dwell in this place, in the land that I gave to your fathers forever and ever. Behold, you trust in lying words that cannot profit. Will you steal, murder, commit adultery, swear falsely, burn incense to Baal, and walk after other gods whom you do not know, and then come and stand before Me in this house which is called by My name, and say, 'We are delivered to do all these abominations'?" --- Jeremiah 7:5-10

Wednesday, May 7, 2008

'Tis a Mystery in this Fair Land; Will Somebody Please Help Me Understand?



WASHINGTON – The Human Rights Campaign, the nation’s largest gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender civil rights organization, today responded to the United Methodist Church’s decision to reaffirm homophobic language which says homosexuality is incompatible with Christian teaching and its failure to reverse a decision by the church’s Judicial Council to allow pastors to reject lesbian and gay people who seek membership in the church. The vote, which passed by a margin of only 84 votes out of more than 900 cast, reaffirmed discriminatory language in the Discipline of the United Methodist Church and failed to counteract an earlier decision by the denominations judicial body. The vote was taken on Wednesday, April 30, at the United Methodist General Conference in Fort Worth, Texas. Separately, the church voted against anti-transgender legislation and voted to oppose "all forms of violence or discrimination based on gender, gender identity, sexual practice or sexual orientation." --- Part of press release by Human Rights Campaign, May 5, 2008

It's a mystery that has been around now for a few decades. Here are some of the elements ----

How is it that those who practice sodomy and lesbianism (and heterosexuals who support their agenda) speak in glowing terms regarding those who agree with them? But those who object to the practices of sodomy and lesbianism on moral grounds are automatically tagged as persons who are hateful and afflicted with bigotry and homophobia?

How is it that those involved in promoting the sodomite/lesbian agenda can quote Bible verses and such referencing of Scripture is considered a tactic that is quite acceptable? But those who object to sodomy and lesbianism are not permitted to refer to the Scriptures. If they do, they are guilty of using "clobber" references and the unpardonable sin of using "proof texts!"

How is it that within the church there are voices which say that God is giving us "new revelation" on human sexuality and sodomy and lesbianism as practiced within committed monogamous relationships are just as legitimate as marriage between a male and a female? This seems to get quite a chorus of amens. But those who insist that God's revelation is complete with a volume of information made up of 66 books which conclude with the book of The Revelation are considered to be a bunch of narrow-minded Bible idolaters!

How is it that there are those who speak of ALL being welcome at the Table (where the symbolical elements of the Lord's Supper are being served) with little or no emphasis on repentance from sin? This is considered a great thing because we are ALL regarded as being children of God. But those who stress the need to repent from all sin, including sexual sin, before partaking of those symbolical elements representing the body and shed blood of our Lord Jesus are considered mean-spirited, judgmental and even un-Christian!

Can you answer this mystery for me along with one final question -- if I had to repent of my sexual sins (which I will not detail here), then why does a person practicing the sexual sin of sodomy or one practicing the sexual sin of lesbianism not have to repent?

The response from some will be that these are not sins under certain conditions -- OK, then where and when did Almighty God give His approval? Please limit your response to books, chapters and verses only!

Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him. Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God. In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother. --- 1 John 3:4-10

Sunday, May 4, 2008

The Bell Tolls for Eight Belles!



"She ran an incredible race. She ran the race of her life." --- Larry Jones, trainer for Eight Belles

She proved to all who watched that she could run with the "boys" -- she was the only filly in the field of 20 in a race that some have labeled as the most exciting 2 minutes in the arena of all sporting events.

Eight Belles was seeking to be the fourth filly in Kentucky Derby history to win the race. She didn't win, but came in 2nd behind Big Brown who was favored to win the 2008 running of the Derby. But shortly after crossing the finish line she suddenly collapsed with both front ankles shattered. And shortly after that the heart rending decision was made to euthanize her on the track where a short time before she demonstrated that she was a fierce competitor!

For many it brought back memories of a race two years earlier of a Derby winner -- Barbaro who shattered a rear ankle after starting a few days later in the Preakness. I saw that race also and was impressed with the fact that this horse, in spite of his injury, wanted to stay in the race until his jockey stopped him!

Perhaps, if we will, we can learn a lesson from animals such as Eight Belles and Barbaro. Their hearts were in racing -- that's what they were trained to do and they put all they had into it until the end.

In this crazy world of confused values and goals, God seeks to break through and remind us that He has a plan for each conceived human being. It will involve training and on our part, giving it the best that we have. The plan begins to unfold once we have repented of our self-centered ways and our sinful rebellion against our Creator, and have received Jesus Christ as our Savior and Lord.

At one point the holy Scriptures refer to our journey here on earth as a "race" --

Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. --- Hebrews 12:1, 2

So, how goes the race on a day by day basis in your experience? There are a lot of distractions and a lot of voices clamoring for attention. All the noise and clamor at Churchhill Downs did not distract a determined filly to give her best and provide dramatic witness that she could indeed run with the best of them!

Eventually each one of us will stand before Jesus Christ -- we will hear one of two statements coming from His mouth -- will it be "Well done, good and faithful servant; you were faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord." (Matthew 25:21) OR "I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!" (Matthew 7:23)


I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing. --- 2 Timothy 4:7, 8

Saturday, May 3, 2008

Open Letter to Mel White, His "Significant Other," and Soulforce from a United Methodist!



We call on members of the United Methodist Church to support your local congregation if it is (or is rapidly becoming) a Reconciling Congregation. But we call upon you to leave your church if your pastor continues to enforce the words that "...do not condone." At least refuse to pay your tithes and offerings until your church opens their doors to all people as Christ commands. --- part of text of "open letter" to United Methodists from Mel White & Soulforce, May 1, 2008

Dear Mel, your "significant other" (Gary), and Members of Soulforce:

Due to the General Conference of the UMC of 2008 not moving in the direction as far as you wanted, you have responded by making a broad appeal to the membership of the United Methodist Church. It is your desire that the United Methodist Church come to the place where those who practice sodomy and lesbianism be fully involved in the membership and life of the UMC. Further, that those who practice such lifestyles be ordained into the UMC ministry if they feel so "called."

Actually what follows was written some time before the death of Jerry Falwell, who is mentioned in the following epistle. But the appeal at the conclusion of the letter is still quite legitimate as some would fully agree. So here we go.......

You have certainly created a lot of waves around the country the last few years in your campaign to force full acceptance of the sodomite and lesbian lifestyles upon all citizens and institutions within the borders of the United States.

It must be admitted by even your most dedicated foes that much progress has been made by you and other like minded groups in your ultimate goal to have civil and church legislation enacted which will grant sodomites and lesbians the right to:

  • legally marry in a church or in a civil ceremony.

  • adopt children and be recognized as legitimate families with all the rights and privileges now possessed by families consisting of a father (male) and a mother (female) who are married and their children.

  • be totally received into the life and ministry of any church, including ordination into the ministry of any church.

  • be employed in any work place with full protection so that although a potential employer strongly objects to sodomy and lesbianism on moral grounds, that employer is forced to hire a sodomite or a lesbian anyway because the law says you cannot discriminate, even on moral grounds!

  • be free to rent any property of choice which is available and even though a Christian who is the property owner has strong moral convictions that sodomy and lesbianism are an abomination, that Christian property owner must rent his property to a couple of sodomites or a couple of lesbians because the law says he cannot refuse the "couple" due to the fact that he would be guilty of "discrimination!"

Your efforts to put extreme pressure on various church groups have been highly publicized and it is clear that some are beginning to cave in a bit to your demands here and there -- even some church leaders who used to oppose sodomy and lesbianism have "converted" and now speak of it in favorable terms!

The strategy you are following could not be improved upon in any manner -- every facet of our society has been impacted and you now have growing support from political and church leaders. But of even greater significance is the fact that you now have a majority of those in mass media communications behind you along with an increased number of productions coming from the movie and television industries which present sodomy and lesbianism in a very favorable light -- or in the case of depicting stories of sodomites and lesbians who were victims of so-called "hate crimes" you have gained a great amount of sympathy for your cause and this should benefit you in seeking special protection and prvileges that we in the heterosexual community do not have nor ever shall in the future!

Now then -- having said all that and as you review your successes over recent years, may I make a suggestion to you regarding the expansion of your agenda to a much higher level.

Is it not time for you to enlarge your vision to include those countries that are still considered almost universally opposed to sodomy and lesbianism? You and your lover, Gary Nixon, at one point rented a house across the street from Jerry Falwell's church. And as anticipated, you reaped millions of dollars worth of publicity from this venture, and if you weren't very high profile before, you certainly are now!

OK, here it is -- are you ready for the next level of challenge? You can arrange for others to live in your house, attend Falwell's church and keep the heat on him and his congregation.

So how about you, your lover, and others who are committed to Soulforce and its mission moving to Riyadh in Saudi Arabia, or Baghdad in Iraq, or Tehran in Iran?

Just do what you've been doing here in the U.S. as you challenge those Islamic cultures to consider the legitimacy of sodomy and lesbianism. Is it not true that the followers of Allah are much more hung up on sodomy and lesbianism than are the citizens of the U.S. and that those who practice sodomy and lesbianism in an Islamic culture must do so in complete secrecy? To be discovered as a practicing sodomite or lesbian can lead to a trial and execution as was the case on January 1, 2002 when three sodomites were publicly beheaded for practicing sodomy in Saudi Arabia! Surely you would agree, would you not, that these attitudes toward sodomy and lesbianism must be changed. And who would be the best person to confront those societies about this issue than you along with your supporters since you have great expertise in this area!

So, while it may be a bit difficult at first, if you pursue this with the same zeal as you have in the U.S., surely the professed followers of Islam will see it your way even as growing numbers of professing Christians and their leaders in this country are seeing things your way and agree with your contention that sodomy and lesbianism are to be considered every bit as normal as heterosexuality.

I anxiously look forward to a news release which tells of you, your lover, and Soulforce supporters taking up residence in Saudi Arabia, Iraq, or Iran and that you are zealously pursuing the same agenda there in public fashion as you have been doing in this country. And after you have "converted" the citizens of those countries you can then move on to the many others which are still dominated by Islam!

And by the way, Mel, try to keep your head as you pursue your crusade in those countries where Allah holds sway over the majority!

Still contending at Circuit Rider's Range, blogging at Musings of a Maverick! and warning at Driving the Final Nails!

Clayton D. Harriger
Elder in Full Connection
W. PA Annual Conference
The United Methodist Church

Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints. For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ. --- Jude 1:3, 4

Friday, May 2, 2008

Aww, They Went and Did It Again!



"...The United Methodist Church does not condone the practice of homosexuality and considers this practice incompatible with Christian teaching..." --- Statement from Book of Discipline of the United Methodist Church recently retained by vote of the General Conference meeting in Fort Worth, Texas on April 30, 2008

The pressure was intensified as never before at the quadrennial gathering of delegates to the General Conference of the United Methodist Church. The "politickin'" process had been going on for a long time prior to the April sessions in Fort Worth, Texas.

Part of the growing problem on this issue is the growing number of sympathizers and supporters from within the ranks of the UMC. These include bishops, pastors and a number of lay persons. So it really boils down to a war on all fronts.

Soulforce is a very high profile organization which is quite aggressive in pushing the agenda for LGBT persons. A picture above shows the attempt to use the present slogan of the UMC to their advantage!

Soulforce is not an organization to be taken lightly -- they have a lot of smart people, strong financial support and have been implementing some very effective stragegies to wear down resistance.

The above mentioned vote on retention of a statement in the Book of Discipline will not make them go away and forget it -- they will be back, stronger than ever in 2012 -- that is, if this country is still standing by then and hasn't in the meantime been judged by Amighty God for all its abominations -- with one of the leading ones being the destruction of over 100,000 unborn children each month throughout the year! Oh yes, sexual immorality in all its variations fits in there somewhere too!

A couple of the strategies is the all too often successful effort to lay a guilt-trip on those of us who refuse to accept sodomy, lesbianism etc. as legitimate moral practices under any condition. If you let them, they will really do a number on you.

Another strategy is to draw us into doing "dialog" -- they just want to talk and and seek "common ground" -- work together within the church, etc. You can disagree if you want, but you MUST respect them and their position on issues related to the practices of sodomy and lesbianism. It's simply resolved by saying "We disagree a bit, but we will work together for the common good, and will respect one another, etc!"

This last strategy on the "dialog" matter is being used effectively in the W. PA Annual Conference.

But enough of that -- read for yourself from the "horse's mouth" -- or am I confused and it's the other end -- oh well, here are a couple of links to let you see for yourself what the "other side" is saying. Here are a couple of paragraphs from the "open letter" to United Methodists:

We call on the United Methodist clergy who know the tragic consequences of those words to take their stand against them. Welcome us. Marry us. Ordain us. Confront and condemn your fellow clergy who dare to use those words to deny membership to lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender Christians. We ask you to take steps immediately to join the Reconciling Ministries Network and to make it known to your community that you are an Open and Affirming Congregation.

We call on members of the United Methodist Church to support your local congregation if it is (or is rapidly becoming) a Reconciling Congregation. But we call upon you to leave your church if your pastor continues to enforce the words that "...do not condone." At least refuse to pay your tithes and offerings until your church opens their doors to all people as Christ commands.

For the entire letter, go to A Soulforce Open Letter to Members of the United Methodist Church Use reverse feature on web browser to return here.

Here is a link to an album of pictures from the "encounter" at the United Methodist General Conference -- Soulforce Pictures at UMC General Conference 2008

Finally, ponder the paragraph below -- another statement from that "open letter" to United Methodists in a republic known as the U. S. of A!

We call on the lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender United Methodists, their families and friends, to refuse to finance your own oppression by giving your tithes and offerings to a church that refuses to see you as fully human. How can we continue to support a local congregation where the pastor insists that our relationships are impure or unholy and thus refuses to marry us or insists that we are not really called by God to serve the church and thus refuses to ordain us? How can we even think of staying in a congregation that denies membership to lesbian, gay, bisexual or transgender persons? And as you leave, take down that sign or banner that reads "Open Hearts, Open Minds, Open Doors." Store it until the United Methodist Church earns the right to use it once again.

Be prepared to be labeled with an even greater intensity and viciousness if you suggest that sodomy and lesbianism are abominations in the sight of a holy God and the only cure is repentance, as is demanded by God in regard to all sins which are sexual in nature!

Woe to those who draw iniquity with cords of vanity, and sin as if with a cart rope; that say, "Let Him make speed and hasten His work, that we may see it; and let the counsel of the Holy One of Israel draw near and come, that we may know it." Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; who put darkness for light, and light for darkness; who put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter! --- Isaiah 5:18-20